Moving now to Epictetus we will discuss the Stoic conception of courage. For Friday, come with a few quotes that we can analyze. When you post them be sure to justify why you think they highlight Epicetus' philosophy of fortitude.
Cheers,
Dr. Layne
"He does not run into trifling dangers, nor is he fond of danger, because he honors few things; but he will face great dangers, and when he is in danger he is unsparing of his life, knowing that there are conditions on which life is not worth having" 1124^b, between [5] and [10]
ReplyDelete-this quote is almost a perfect, and succinctly accurate, definition of a courageous man. It allows that a courageous man will risk his life for what he believes to be worth it, but he does not specify, thereby granting the potential of courage to both a suicide bomber and a US Soldier.
"For the good-tempered man tends to be un-perturbed and not be led by passion, but to be angry in the manner, at the things, and for the length of time, that the rule dictates"
-this quote from chapter 5, 1125^b, allows temperance, which should govern all human action, to allow for extreme emotion, for all men feel passion at one point, whilst still expecting that it be controlled and not excessive. Passion should not rule out temperance; this acknowledges that.
"for without virtue it is not easy to bear gracefully the goods of fortune, and, being unable to bear them, and thinking themselves superior to others, they despise others and themselves do what they please"
- 1124^a and 1124^b, from [30] to [5]. In this section, it mentions the necessity of the other virtues in courage, demonstrating an understanding that the virtue of courage lies in more than just bravery.
However I must say that this section seemed primary about pride, although the quotes seemed to apply mainly to temperance or bravery.
"If he says, I will cut off your head, I reply, You threaten my head. If he says, I will throw you into prison, I say, You threaten the whole of this poor body. If he threatens me with banishment, I say the same. Does he threaten you at all? If I feel that all these things do not concern me, he does not threaten me at all; but if I fear any of them, it is I whom he threatens."
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion this quote shows how mental strength is the only true strength necessary to avoid danger. Epictetus seems to think that if one does not have control of your will, they can in no way have control of you, and can in know way threaten all of you. Your ability of free will is the only thing of importance.
the quote by Socrates " Anytus and Melitus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me"is a wonderful example of fortitude. Socrates is emotionally strong at the idea of death, because he fears not physically dying since he still has his will.
I particularly liked this text. The idea that only you can control your own will and no one can truly be your master, for they never be the master of thing in your own power, is a wonderful idea. It gives the individual immense power which I find inspirational.
"I have learned to see that everything which ~happens, if it be independent of my will, is Ilothing to me." This to me represents supreme courage of the mind. To put oneself in this state of mind is must be extremely difficult, for most humans fear harm done to them even though it is independent of their will. He does not fear prison because although his body is there, his mind need not be, therefore he can hold on to his freedom in a sense.
ReplyDelete"Cbnfidence (courage) then ought to be employed against death, and caution against the fear of death." Here Epictetus is saying that we should not try to evade death because we can't, but we should be courageous in the face of death and do what we would do anyway. What we should be cautious about is teh fear of death. That is meant to be avoided so that it does not hinder our actions.
"For by employing caution toward things which are really bad, it will result that we shall have confidence with respect to the things which are not so."
ReplyDelete--As Epictetus says in the quote below, confidence is very closely tied into courage throughout these passages. In this quote, I believe he is saying that there is certainly a place for courageous caution, when it is being cautious in the face of things that are "really bad." And he also says that if we are cautious around the bad things, we will be confident, and courageous with respect things that are good.
"Confidence (courage) then ought to be employed against
death, and caution against the fear of death.
--I know Jordan just used this quote, but I picked it out before reading the blog, so oh well. I agree with what he said, in that we should not fear death, and should be cautious to avoid fearing it, because there is no avoiding death. Therefore, we should be courageous and brave in the face of death, because it has no pain and is inevitable.
"We should rather believe the philosophers sho say that the educated only are free." "No one then who lives in error is free." "No one then who is in a state of fear or sorrow or perturbation is free." Through Epictetus' definition of freedom and the previous qoutes about caution/confidence, he asserts that we must be educated in order to have courage. Through understanding of a situation, one can be more inclined to make the right decision about whether to show fear or confidence.
ReplyDelete"a man ought to be at all times cautious and courageous: courageous toward the things which do not depend on the will, and cautious in the things which are within the power of the will"
ReplyDeleteI really like the depth with which Epictetus goes into this seeming paradox. I think it displays an excellent example of fortitude. One must correctly apply the values of cautiousness and confidence in one's life--and must apply them in the correct amounts. Too much cautiousness makes one withdrawn, unable to fully appreciate the gift of life. Too much confidence makes one shameless to the point of no virtue. The twofold precision involved in Epictetus's explanation of courage especially strikes me, as I see fortitude, or temperance, a virtue of precision.
I really liked this reading and very much look forward to discussion!!! :)
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ReplyDelete1.“What then is the thing which is wanted? A man who shall apply them, one who by acts shall bear testimony to his words”
ReplyDeleteThis explains an important concept which we have discussed over and over with regards to virtue; that we cannot only be “good” in our words but it must be seen in our actions and deeds. Therefore what we as human beings should aspire to is for our will to be in accordance with our actions.
2.“But if I shall release myself from my masters, (death, pleasure, pain) that is from those things by means of which masters are formidable, what further trouble have I?, what master have I still?”
I believe that this quote does a good job at explaining why some people lack courage or don’t do the most courageous things. If we do not allow ourselves to be ruled by fear of death, pain and over indulgence, we can truly be courageous and act for the sake of the good itself and not the means to an end. For example a means to avoid death, or a means to achieve pleasure.
3.“Anytus and Melitus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me: and further, he says, “If it so pleases God, so let it be.”
This quotes ties in to the above point I was trying to make. This shows the ability of a person to display true courage when they ‘release themselves from their masters.’ When this happens not even death can hurt you because you have realized not only inner strength but also what the good is and without it, it is simply not worth living a menial life for.
1. "I have learned to see that everything which happens, if it be independent of my will, is nothing to me."
ReplyDelete-I just thought that this quote perfectly represented Stoicism. It is the epitome of an iron will, because he separates the will from the body, the spiritual from the physical. In this way, regardless of the material world in which he exists, one who has a strong will is forever strong.
2. "To whom then does the contemplation of these matters (philosophical inquiries) belong? To him who has leisure, for man is an animal that loves contemplation."
-Here Epictetus lines up with Aristotle in the belief that it is the city's function to provide leisure time for its citizens, and then man's function to contemplate and to reason. Although Epictetus does not explicitly state that it is man's function, he does declare that the responsibility is on the man who has leisure alone.
3. "We are then in the condition of deer; when they flee from the huntsmen's feathers in fright, wither do they turn and in what do they seek refuge as safe? They turn to the nets, and thus they parish by confounding things which are objects of fear with things that they ought not to fear."
-Once again I spotted a bit of Aristotle's chocolate in Epictetus's peanut butter. Aristotle claimed that to be courageous one must fear the right things at the right time for the right reasons. Similarly, here Epictetus criticizes the ignorant for fearing what should not be feared, thus forcing them into a bad state of mind.
"Do I fear the master of things which are not in power? And what are these things to me? Do you philosophers then teach us to despise kings? I hope not."
ReplyDeleteI chose this quote because this quote, out of all the sections in this text, defines Stoicism better than any other. The idea that we should only strive to manage and control what is in our power, and by doing so we can achieve happiness.
"For death or pain is not formidable, but the fear
ReplyDeleteof pain or death"
This statement shows the power of fear, and implies the decisions that one would make because of fear. The quote made me think for a few minutes on whether I agreed with it or not; ultimately, i chose to disagree. Nonetheless, the fact that it made me pause and deliberate is commendable.
“But if I shall release myself from my masters, (death, pleasure, pain) that is from those things by means of which masters are formidable, what further trouble have I?, what master have I still?”
Again, this quote made me stop and think about it. I am not a stoic, although Epictetus does make a valid argument here. If one can't create incentives or disincentives, than one has no master.
"man is not the master of man; but death is, and life and pleasure and pain"
Another thought provoking statement. The question I pose to myself and the class is what happens when man wields these things in front of other men?
Let me first start by asking for next time if you (Dr. Layne) could try to maybe make a cleaner copy of the text. I had trouble reading the words at the ends of the lines... Maybe it was just me, I'm not sure. I'm not trying to sound mean or anything. Just suggesting that the text was a bit difficult to read.
ReplyDelete1. "There will be a time perhaps when tragic actors will suppose that they are [only] masks and buskin(?) and the long cloak." (pp.100)
--I like how he puts this. Basically, I think he's saying that if people get so caught up in whatever they are doing, they become an empty shell. An example could be working on a factory line. You work on the line your entire life and eventually become a shell of your soul/mind.
2. "If he has voice, he still remains." (pp. 100)
--This quote reminded me of the movie Saving Private Ryan (which I totally think we should watch for class). This reminded me of a scene in the movie where they sent a runner carrying a message across a battlefield. The runner was shot down, and the Germans continued "shooting up his body" as quoted from the movie. Then one of the soldiers explained to the medic that as long as he lived, he still carried the message.
3. "For death or pain is not formidable, but the fear of pain or death." (pp. 109)
--I believe this to be true in even today's world. People are scared of death and pain, and not necessarily the actual death. They are scared about the mental anguish it would bring onto them.
1. "It is your business to propose; it is mine to exercise myself well."
ReplyDeleteI felt that there was a connection between what we learned with Aristotle what Epictetus states and this quote is where I felt it the most. It reminded me of Aristotle stating that virtue and vice are within our power.
2. "For by employing caution towards things which are really bad; it will result that we shall have confidence with respect to things which are not so."
3. "Confidence (courage) then ought to be employed against death, and caution against the fear of death."
4. "For if a man should transfer caution to those things in which the will may be exercised and the acts of the will, he will immediately by willing to be cautious have also the power of avoiding what he chooses: but if he transfer it to the things which are not in his power and will and attempt to avoid the things which are in the power of others, he will of necessity fear, he will be unstable, he will be disturbed."
5. "And thus this paradox will no longer appear either impossible or a paradox, that a man ought to be at the same time cautious and courageous: courageous toward the things which do not depend on the will, and cautious in the things which are within the power of the will."
For quotes 2-5, I felt that these really solidified Epictetus's definition of courage. A courageous person must be cautious as well. He should be courageous about things which are not in our power (like death) and cautious towards things which are in our power (like the fear of death).
I really enjoyed this text. I actually understood what I was reading this time and it made me think more about my personal definition of courage. I do agree with Jonathan though that the copy was hard to read so these quotes might have a word or two wrong.
"Death or pain is not formidable, but the fear
ReplyDeleteof pain or death"
I like this quote and feel it represents the stoic;s view of courage quite nicely. This quote tells me not to fear death, and that the only scary thing about death is the fear of death. when i read this it make me think of the quote "we have nothing to fear but fear itself." I think winston churchill said that.
"Anytus and Melitus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me"
this quote ties in nicely with the previous quote about fearing death. Courage allows someone to not fear, because fear is subjective and not truly real. stoicism is in my opinion the complete mastery of ones mind and it's emotions, and the separation of emotion from lifes events.
I have learned to see that everything which happens, if it be independent of my will, is nothing to me.
ReplyDeleteTo see this and acknowledge this is a great fortitude. If you there is nothing you can do about a situation, best not let it get to you. You should focus your work on those things that you have control over and leave those that you do not have control over, like death, alone.
Anytus and Melitus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me: and further, he says, ‘If it so pleases God, so let it be.’
This quote really emphasizes Epictetus’s point. It shows how he applies that previous quote. Anytus and Melitus can perform the actual act of killing Epictetus but this will not hurt him because he does not fear death. Death is something he cannot control so does not allow himself to be bothered with it.
"Where things are not dependent on the will, there you should employ confidence, but where they are dependent on the will, there you should employ caution". This pretty much sums up the stoic description of courage according to Epictetus. If something is out of your control, there is no point in fearing it, because whatever happens will happen anyway, regardless of your actions (i.e. thunderstorms). In these cases you must show confidence, because if you fear a thunderstorm, then it is the master of you. If something is dependent on YOUR will, then pure confidence is unwise. Caution is important when your actions make a difference in a situation.
ReplyDelete"We must not believe the many, who say that free persons only ought to be educated, but we should rather believe the philosophers who say that the educated only are free." I liked this quote a lot. It plays with the meaning of "free" to mean the fortitude of having knowledge instead of physical freedom. The ignorant slave owner is just as 'enslaved' as the slave who was never allowed any education.
P.s. Raphael, "the only thing we have to fear is fear itself" is by FDR
"Whom then do I fear? the master of what? The master of things which are in my own power? There is no such master. Do I fear the master of things which are not in my power? And what are these things to me?"
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because it basically defines fear, whether fearing your own mistakes, things you cannot control, or lastly the unknown.
"All this I do with terror and uneasiness. But if I shall release myself from my masters, that is from those things by means of which masters are formidable, what further trouble have I, what master have I still?"
I like this quote mostly because I like philosophy that deals with personal liberation and freedom.
"Why, is it in your power to take what subject you choose?... Have you not abilities which enable you to manage the subject which has been given to you?" This quote seems to show the fickleness of human nature, and its tendency to constantly change its decisions. To be stoic and show fortitude, one must be steadfast in one's decisions. This seems to show Epicetus's belief that if one has the ability to do something, one should stick with that decision.
ReplyDelete"But if the same person has passed judgment on an hypothetical syllogism... Does he then who has the power of making any declaration about you know what is pious or impious?" Epicetus seems to say in this quote that the ignorant should not pass judgment on the non-ignorant. His ignorance in life and general knowledge proves he is incapable of passing good judgment about one's virtues, because he will clearly be wrong in one way or another.
"Man is not a master of man; but death is, and life and pleasure and pain." In terms of stoicism, this quote seems to say (to me) that for a man to be his own master, or a master of every other man, one must possess great pleasures, or the ability to inflict pain and death upon another man. The virtue of being a man does not give a man the right to lord over other men. It is his status that gives him power. Furthermore, this can also be looked at a more literal manner; death is the end of all things for a person. Once someone is dead, there is nothing left for that person other than his or her legacy. Furthermore, pleasures can lord over man as easily as death. Man seems to work his whole life in order to obtain pleasures, thus it seems to me that pleasures can dictate one's life in that regard.
"Man is not the master of man; but death is, and life and pleasure and pain; for if he comes without these things, bring Caesar to me and you will see how firm I am."
ReplyDeleteThis quote points out that it is not really the threat itself that forces us to do anything, but rather our fear of what is backing up the threat. Therefore, if we remove the fear and face life courageously, the threat is rendered impotent.
"Confidence (courage) then ought to be employed against death, and caution against the fear of death"
Again, this stoic quote calls us to master ourselves, and dispel our fear even of death. This idea is the basis of FDR's famous quote: “The only thing we have to fear is fear itself," which called Americans to pick their chins up, and endure in the traditional stoic manner.
“Therefore when the tyrant threatens and tells me, I say, Whom do you threaten? If he says, I will put you in chains, I say, You threaten my hands and my feet. If he says, I will cut off your head, I reply, You threaten my head. If he says, I will throw you into prison, I say, You threaten the whole of this poor body. If he threatens me with banishment, I say the same. Does he then not threaten you at all?”
ReplyDeleteI think that this is a great quote outlining both stoicism and courage at the same time.
(this section, for some reason, did not get copy and pasted over to my first post) Standing tall in the face of a tyrannical ruler and saying “You got nothin’ on me,” is not only bad a**, but I think very courageous. I’m not quite sure how to explain it in the context of stoicism, but I think it fits.
ReplyDelete"Take my poor body, take my property, take those who are about me. If I advise any persons to claim these things, they may truly accuse me." This quote conveys the idea that material possessions, and anything outside the mind for that matter, are of no importance. Therefore, everything of consequence in life, including courage, is all in the mind.
ReplyDelete"If you did not learn these things in order to show them in practice, why did you learn them?" This quote made me think of our class discussion in which we talked about everyone's "life purpose." It's an interesting concept, but I can't imagine how everyone's purpose could be predetermined. Is it brave to fufill one's purpose, even if you would rather be doing something else? Or does this contradict the idea that one's will must match their actions?
"Then it is the fact that a musician pays no regard to him who declares that the lowest chord in the lyre is the highest." I like this quote becuase it connects knowledge to courage; it is unnecessary to pay attention to those who don't know what they're talking about.
"And what does Socrates say? Anytus and Melitus can kill me, but they cannot hurt me: and further, he says, 'If it so pleases God, let it be.'" (pg 98)
ReplyDeleteThis gives an interesting statement on the death of Socrates and his supposed attitude on it. This 'let it be' attitude is an interesting Stoic view (although I passionately disagree with it, as well as Stoicism).
"The man who cries out in this way neither hears what words mean, nor understands what is said, nor does he care at all to know what philosophers say or what they do. Let him alone." (pg 97)
Ah, here is something I like. This quote says a lot not just about how he reacted to people who criticized him, but also reveals a bit about how philosophers were treated back then. And to me, this pretty much says: Most people who think they know what they are talking about and think they know who you are, don't. So f***'em.
"No one then who lives in error is free. Do you wish to live in fear? Do you wish to live in sorrow? Do you wish to live in perturbation? By no means. No one then who is in a state of fear or sorrow or perturbation is free; then whoever is delivered from sorrows and fears and perturbations, he is at the same time also delivered from servitude." (pg 110)
Ah, there's that word again: "freedom." This would be great to discuss in class, especially in reference to "Prometheus Bound" because of the way Epictetus discusses what he thinks of freedom and servitude, similar to what we had to analyze in "Prometheus Bound".
"For it is not the small arguments that are wanted now; the writings of the Stoics are full of them. What then is the thing which is wanted? A man who shall apply them, one who by acts shall bear testimony to his words. Assume, I entreat you, this character, that we may no longer use in schools the examples of the ancients, but may have some example of our own." (102)
ReplyDeleteEpictetus here is describing the need for current examples of courage, current examples of fortitude. He is stressing the need for someone who not only believes in Stoicism but also stresses it himself, not just through his words, but through his actions.
"Confidence (courage) then ought to be employed against death, and caution against the fear of death. But now we do the contrary, and employ against death the attempt to escape; and to our opinion about it we employ carelessness, rashness and indifference." (109)
Epictetus here asks why we now employ an attempt to escape death instead of using courage to fight it. I find his analysis interesting and rather accurate: in our fear of death, we often act carelessly, rashly, indifferent to anything but the escape of the eternal and the attempt at, not necessarily immortality, but some sort of death-less existence. We know that this existence can't be possible, but we seem to strive for it. This reminds me of a quote from Talladega Nights:
"No one lives forever. No one. But with advances in modern science and my high level of income, it's not crazy to think I can live to be 245, maybe 300..."
We strive to AVOID death at all costs rather than to DEFEAT death.
From what I read (even though the majority of it went over my head), a lot of the passage seemed to focus on one's will (or more specifically mental fortitude.) Therefore, I focused on quotes that primarily dealt with will and the like.
ReplyDelete"Nothing else can conquer Will except the Will itself."
This quote stuck out to me, because I'm an extremely hard-headed individual myself. This quote can go to say that only your own ambitions can affect how one acts, or synonymously, everyone is innately mentally independent, which will in turn link back to fortitude. I think this is one of the quintessential statements that Epictetus wants to bring about, seeing that it almost summarizes (in my opinion) the majority of the work. I'm actually surprised that no one else caught on to this. I don't remember exactly where the quote was, but I know it was towards the beginning.
"I have learned to see that everything which happens, if it be independent of my will, is nothing to me."
Many other people caught on to this quote, which I'm not really surprised about. It relates to the first quote in the fact that it's essentially saying no outside factors should affect your overall outlook on life.
"Let others labor at forensic cases, problems and syllogisms: do you labor at thinking about death, chains, the rack, exile; and do all this with confidence and reliance on him who has called you to these sufferings, who has judged you worthy of the place in which being stationed you will show what things the rational governing power can do when it takes its stand against the forces which are not within the power of our will."
ReplyDeleteI think this quote serves as a great summary and example of what the Epictetus is trying to state overall. Although others may have control over our physical condition and wellbeing, our will and mental state will forever remain our own. Others may try to implement their thoughts and will onto an individual, but the individual has the final say on how their own thoughts will be affected by the thoughts of others. Although we may not always have full control of our bodies due to higher powers, our thoughts are the few but precious things which are truly our own.
"If I feel that all these things do not concern me, he does not threaten me at all; but if I fear any of them, it is I whom he threatens"
ReplyDeleteI find this quote significant because it's basically saying that the reaction is something the person can choose. If a person has no fear of going to prison, then going to prison would not affect the person. Or if a person overeats but has no worries of getting overweight, then overeating has no effect upon the that person.
"I have learned to see that everything which happens, if it be independent of my own will, is nothing to me"
This is similar to the above quote, but differs in that this quote is saying "If I cannot control it, then I should not worry about it." I agree with this quote, because good choices are more easily made by focusing on what you can control and change, and not obsessing over the things you cannot.
"No one then who lives in a state of fear or sorrow or perturbation is free"
These feelings are just another master over people. If you're constantly bombarded by worries inside of your mind, then you're not free because your attention is taken away from you, and this hinders your ability to make good conscious decisions.
"he who has the inferior principles over powers him who is superior in principles" (96)
ReplyDelete"when you are going into any great personage, remember that another also from above sees what is going on and that you ought to please him rather than the other" (107)
Epicetus' philosophy of fortitude uses the concept of an external being to please and leaves individual reason and virtue out of what it means to be courageous. he also insists that greater principal always prevails, which is unpractical in our world today.
"If the same person had passed judgment on an hypothetical syllogism, and had made a declaration, "the conclusion that, if it is day, it is light, I declare to be false," what has happened to the hypothetical syllogism? Who is judged in this case? Who has been condemned? The hypothetical syllogism, or the man who has been deceived by it? Does he then who has the power of making any declaration about you know what is pious or impious? Has he studied it and has he learned it? Where? From whom?" p. 101
ReplyDeleteI like this quote because it is giving an example of the point he makes about people perceiving things in their own eye and people making their own decisions. (I think...)
"A man must keep this in mind and when he is to any such difficulty he should know that the time come for showing if he has been instructed. For he is come into a difficulty is liko a young man from a who has practiced the resolution of syllogisms and if person proposes to him and syllogism he says propose to me a syllogism which is skilfully that I may exercise myself on it."
ReplyDeleteTo paraphrase, Epictetus believes that an individual is best able to demonstrates his courage and fortitude (show that he has been instructed) when he faces difficulty and must bring himself to rise to the challenge.
"...but if he sounds the signal for retreat as he did to Socrates we must obey he who gives the signal as if he was a general."
But Epictetus believed that the exercise if fortitude must be accompanied by the exercise of judgment. When it is appropriate to fight, one should fight and endure whatever is necessary, but so should one be willing to endure passively when one us called upon to do so.
"Therefore when the tyrant threatens and calls me, I say, Whom do you threaten?"
ReplyDeleteHe's saying as he later says, that everything independent of his will is nothing to him. He is more than his body or any part of that, he is something else, sort of his inner virtue and as long as he is true to that and wills it well, none of the tyranny of the exterior world can overtake him if he, knowing his own beyondness, doesn't cower from it.
"All this is nothing: but I have been preparing myself as for something great."
Again, it shows his beyondness but it shows that there is a progress to be made in life; for Epicetus there is some great thing to work towards, and his working to strengthen his will, his "preparations" give the philosopher a similar duty to that of an athlete in training, which the Greek mind images so near a god. The preparations forr Epicetus, I'm not sure if they're for something real or a line, but in the world they give him a goal and a goal easily gives you fortitude.