Describe the characteristics of the strongest/most powerful individual in Book I of the Iliad as well as the characteristics of the weakest individual. Be sure to define what strength/power is as well as weakness.
Good Luck and remember that there are no wrong answers!
It is difficult to find courage in the first book. Everyone is driven in selfish desire to greater glory, honor, and spoils. The aged advisor Nestor shows the only real courage. Nestor openly challenges the two strongest men in a council of war, one the son of a God and the other a powerful king. He steps into a classic "mine is bigger than yours debate" between the two greatest warriors present in order to save the lives of countless warriors with no army at his back and no brawn on his body. To do so required great bravery, wisdom and selflessness, and although he was likely the weakest man in the room, Nestor showed the greatest strength. Now, I am going to go against the grain a bit and call Achilles the weakest character in the first book. Although he is persecuted, he doesn't accept what must be done. He valued his own honor higher than the lives of the men he leads. At least Agamemmnon accepted that he had to give up his prize (even if he does soil the action by demanding compensation), Achilles is almost flat out agaisnt making a personal sacrifice for the lives of the men around him, which is an act of extreme weakness and selfishness to me. But he isn't even done yet! After he is persuaded to sacrifice (it takes two Gods!), he then proceeds to bitch about it to mommy. Achilles is a coward for not accepting a sacrifice for others and then asking someone else to work for his justice.
ReplyDeleteIn my excellent opinion, Achilles showed the most strength out of anyone in Book 1 because of his piety and sacrifice. Not only was Achilles strong by traditional standards, but he also limits himself by peacefully allowing Agamemnon to obtain most of the glory from victorious conquests. This display of humility shows true strength and power. I believe that Agamemnon, paradoxically, is the weakest individual because of his inability to control the desires of his flesh. When he has to give up his woman, he steals another one from Achilles, showing desperation for whatever his body desires as opposed to what is truly important. Although he has traditional power, he acts through weakness. We don't have traditional standards at the Palace of Wisdom.
ReplyDeleteStrength is being strong in terms of mental power and/or physical power. Weakness is a lack of strength. In my opinion, the strongest individual in Book I of the Iliad is Achilles. Achilles is has strength in terms of physical power, described as "the distant deadly archer" and "the matchless runner". He is also mentally strong. When the seer asks Achilles to swear to protect him, Achilles does not hesitate to do so. He also is courageous enough to confront Agamemnon about his actions, despite the consequences of losing his prize. Agamemnon is the weakest individual. His excessive pride brings a plague to his entire army. An inability to admit he is wrong antagonizes his greatest warrior. Agamemnon's selfishness is not the mark of a strong leader. Therefore, I identify him as the weakest individual. Another weak individual in the story is Zeus whose wife, in contrast, is a very strong individual.
ReplyDeleteInteresting Huff...why would you call Zeus weak and Hera strong?
ReplyDeleteStrength is quite simply the ability to exert force, but power is different. One can have power over many men without haveing strength. Achilles is the most powerful character in this story because he is exalted as "the most violent of all men" and is known far and wide as a great warrior. Is he the most courageous? I say no, but that is for another discussion; he is definitely teh most powerful. The weakest of these men would have to be the two aides, Talbythius and Eurybates, Agamemnon sent to take Briseis back to him. these against their own will ook her abck. They could not find the strength or courage to stand with Achilles and instead obeyed unjust and foolish orders based soley on teh spite of Agamemnon.
ReplyDeleteI agree with the majority of the above comments. Although by no means blameless or even consisting of ideal character, Achilles is the most courageous and strong of the assorted characters. He knows what he wants, and is willing to do what it takes for the sake of his honor, regardless of whom he offends. His end- using a poor kidnapped girl for his own ends- stands as less than ideal, however, he follows through and stands for his stated beliefs. Additionally, an very revealingly, he fights his own battles. It is not until he has done all that he could that he invokes his mother's help, whereas Chryses runs away, "terrified" and immediately prays to the gods for help (78).
ReplyDeleteI would also agree with Huff that Zeus is weak and Hera strong- he acts in favor of whomever he sees he can gain the most from, or in favor of whoever flatters him best. Hera, however, has an ideal in mind- helping the Greeks and she is willing to risk almost everything, including her marriage, to do that.
Agamemnon is perhaps the most interesting character, but perhaps also the, morally, most weak. He makes many courageous sounding demands, but while Achilles relies on himself and a select band of warriors, Agamemnon has an entire army. There is no courage in making the rules when you're the strongest guy in the room.
It is difficult to rank exactly who is the strongest and who is weakest without knowing how you define strength. There are two common definitions of strength. There is the definition which is based primarily on physical strength and ranking a person holds. In this case, the strongest God in the first book would easily be Zeus, and the strongest among the mortals would be Agamemnon. However, if you do not think of strength as physical, results change. I believe strength is more mental. Someone's ability to be courageous or wise in my opinion makes them stronger. By this definition, among the Gods, Achille's mother, Thetis, is extremely strong. It takes much courage and persuasion to convince Zeus to go against his wife's wishes and aid the Trojans. Among the mortals, the wise old man Nestor is the strongest. He showed much strength when he stood between Agamemnon and Achilles. He was wise enough to not anger either man, and it took a lot of courage to speak his opinion. Since I do believe strongly in the second definition of strength, I must say Agamemnon is the weakest in this story. His arrogance is a weak virtue. Although he claims to be powerful and mighty, he is not wise in his decisions, and makes many enemies that will later come to haunt him.
ReplyDeleteI'd have to agree with most of the above comments and say that Achilles shows the most strength and power in book one. Aside from his physical strength, Achilles is "strong" because not only did he stand his ground against Agamemnon; he also restrained himself when the two soldiers came to take away his wife. To me, the latter scenario showed Achilles' true strength because he realized that the two soldiers were only pawns of the king, so he gave up his wife in order to spare the lives of two innocent men. Achilles, therefore, shows that true strength means being able to do what one believes is right regardless of the consequences. As much as I'd like to label Agamemnon as weak, I cannot do so because even though his actions were wrong, he was got what he wanted. I think that Hera was the weakest character because I define weakness as letting fear get in the way of action. After Hera tried to confront Zeus, she cowered when Zeus threatened her, and she needed the strength of her "crippled" son to build back up her courage.
ReplyDeleteAlthough Achilles may be the obvious candidate for the strongest individual due to his great physical strength, I do not think he is as pious or as courageous as Chryses. I will define strength as exhibiting each of the four classic virtues, and weakness as showing little or none of them. Chryses is extremely courageous, both morally and physically, for approaching Menelaus and Agamemnon by himself. He is risking his life, because he is completely vulnerable to the Achaeans when he does this. He is morally courageous because he humbles himself to Agamemnon by pleading with him. Chryses shows prudence by using his judgment to leave when Agamemnon ordered it, instead of refusing and possibly sacrificing his life for no apparent gain. He is wise for offering the priceless ransom in front of the Achaean army, because the army wanted Agamemnon to accept the deal, thus dividing the Achaeans' support for their king. Finally and obviously, he is pious because he is a priest, and uses his faith to ask Apollo to attack the Achaeans.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, Agamemnon is without a doubt the weakest individual in this book. Keep in mind I use the word "individual", because without his army to command, he has very limited physical strength. He has no apparent wisdom, as his choices are based on sacrificing everything and everyone else for his own greed and pleasure. He is not prudent; if he was, he would use judgment to let Achilles keep Briseus, because he is a valuable fighter. Agamemnon lacks piety, because he spurned the priest and inherently challenged Apollo. The only virtue that I can argue he might have is courage, because he challenges Achilles, who could easily kill him, and who almost did.
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ReplyDeleteToday in class, we touched upon four classical virtues: wisdom, prudence, piety, and, of course, courage. The "matchless runner" Achilles may be an obvious conidate, but in my opinion, I do not see an individual of pure brawn, such as Achilles, as a hero. Looking back at the classical virtues, Achilles certainly has courage covered. But does he have wisdom? prudence? piety? Nothing in the text I read really suggested that Achilles possesses anything but ripped abs and determination. And as the StrengthsQuest speaker brought up, a strength can only be helpful if it is used in moderation (such as too much "Woo" in a used car salesman, etc.) To me, Achilles "determination" crosses the line into stubbornness, especially considering how hot-headed he is. And in Ancient Greece, going against the will of your king is a big no-no. Wisdom, prudence, and piety--all are things that Achilles is lacking. Who fills the shoes of the hero of this passage? Nestor is my choice for this hero. He shows his prudence and wisdom by rising at just the right moment to try and appease the greedy, myopic Agamemnon and the rash Achilles. He speaks words that do not attack or cut-down the two adversaries, but rather attempts to make them realize the error in their thinking and ideals. This may have fallen on deaf ears, but this does not mean Nestor's heroic virtues should be overlooked.
ReplyDeleteAs far as weakest is concerned, it is hard to pinpoint an all-out weak character. The "white armed" Hera is bold, strong, and determined when in comes to the mortals she cares about, but easily submits to the harsh will of her husband. Even Agamemnon, in his greed and heartlessness, shows determination in getting what he wants and is certainly not the weakest. There is no completely feeble and helpless character, but Hera and Agamemnon would be my Top (or bottom, rather) 2.
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ReplyDeleteStrength is often defined as a measurement of one’s positive qualities and attributes. Those who stand up for their beliefs and confront issues would be considered strong as opposed to those who avoid confrontation and let their problems eventually overwhelm them. According to this definition both Achilles and Agamemnon would be considered strong. However, Achilles came out to be the stronger individual of the two even though Agamemnon is considered his superior. Agamemnon’s strength comes from inherent power in his title but not from his actions or his manner. On the contrary, Achilles gains respect from the soldiers due to his bravery and not simply by his title. From the depictions of recent battles by Achilles and Agamemnon it appeared as if Achilles was always at the front of the line fighting alongside his comrades whereas his superior, Agamemnon, remained near the safer parts of his army. All in all, although Agamemnon is inherently more powerful than Achilles, Achilles depicts his strengths and power on a much more physical level. The combination of his proficient combat ability and the earned loyalty of his men have clearly shown the reader that Achilles is a much stronger individual than Agamemnon could ever hope to be.
ReplyDeleteBefore answering this question, I had to remind myself that we are discussing strength vs. weakness, not courage vs. cowardice. Someone can be strong or powerful without being the least bit courageous. Take Agamemnon as an example. I believe he is the strongest/ most powerful character in the passage. One who is powerful is capable of influencing, possibly controlling the lives of others, and one who is strong is able to endure and conquer resistance. Agamemnon had the most power and the most strength, as evidenced by the fact that he overrides Achilles’ fierce resistance during their argument, and because, in the end, he is in control. He leaves achilles robbed, heart-broken, and unable to overcome Agamemnon’s will. I could also agree with Zach, however, and say that Nestor is the most powerful because it is he who ends up influencing the behavior of the King himself by convincing him to give up Chryseis.
ReplyDeleteInversely, Achilles, often thought of as the embodiment of strength, is the weakest. Although he argues passionately with Agamemnon, he eventually backs down and is left robbed. He is overpowered. He demonstrates weakness: the inability to overcome a comparative strength.
Were we to discuss courage, however, I would say that Achilles’ fearless confrontation with the King only highlights Agamemnon’s true cowardice, as he hides behind blame, greed, and pride.
Before fully answering the question, I must state that I believe strength and power are two very different concepts. Power is innately different from strength in that it shows an ability to influence or control others, whereas strength is not so much influence over people, but the ability to direct influence a situation, whether it be through physical might, mental mettle, or emotional fortitude. With these ideas in mind, I believe that Agamemnon may be the most powerful character, for he is able to control and influence those around him more effectively than any other individual. However, I would argue that Achilles is indeed the strongest character because he shows more mental and emotional strength in overcoming his anger and desires to seek revenge against Agamemnon. Weakness, on the other hand, is the lack of such ability to overcome an opposing force, whether it be internal or external, emotional, or physical. Therefore, the weakest characters in my opinion, are the two heralds of Agamemnon, who took Briseis from Achilles, because they lack the strength to go against the will of the king, even when they do not agree with his demands and their own actions.
ReplyDeleteStrength has a very broad range of definitions, some of which are harder to gauge than others. For example, the strengths quest quiz we took has 34 distinct examples of strengths people may have. However, it is impossible to guage one of these unique strengths higher than any other. So, for this specific question, strength wil be defined as a significant amount of power (either physical, supernatural, mental, or societal). Apollo seems to have to greatest strength of all the characters of book 1. Throughout the book, Apollo rains down arrows upon Agamemnon's troops, and actions go completely uncontested by any of the other characters. The majority of book 1 is spent trying to appease him, further cementing the true scope of his power over the other characters.
ReplyDeleteWeakness also carries a broad range of definitions. For this question, let weakness be a deficiency of power (either physical, supernatural, mental, or societal). Agamemnon, while he holds a very powerfull position, lacks any apparent strength. Instead of leading his troops into battle, he prefers to sit by and send others to do the fighting. Agamemnon's main job is to command troops. However, he displays an obvious inability to command respect from Achilles or any of Achilles's men.
Strength/power is authority and control over a situation; it’s having the upper hand. Having this combination of strength and power is completely separate from having courage. In “The Rage of Achilles”, the most powerful individual is Achilles. Achilles characteristics, which thusly contribute to his power, are his resourcefulness, his physical strength, and his pride. Achilles has resources. He uses his mother to convince Zeus to punish the Achaeans. Without her, he might not have been able to accomplish this form of revenge. Also, Achilles is powerful because he has something to wager--his strength and skillful fighting. Because Achilles refuses to go into battle after he and Agamemnon argue, the Greeks suffer a great lost. Achilles is one of the best fighters they have. Lastly is his pride. If not for his pride, Achilles might not even care that Agamemnon took Briseis from him. She was a battle prize, not someone he loved.
ReplyDeleteWeakness is the opposite of power; hence, the weak have no authority. The weak do not have a voice; they have no control. The weakest character in “The Rage of Achilles” is Briseis. Throughout Book One, Briseis never speaks. She is a toy, a prize being passed from man to man without any say in the matter. Briseis main characteristic is submission. She is in a position of no power and cannot easily change that. She must go along with what is told, submitting herself to the wills of men.
I had a difficult time deciding which of the two characters were the weaker: Archilles or Agamemnon as they both endangered the greater good of the army and their people for their own selfish desires. Agamemnon did this because his prized possession Chryseis had to be returned and Archilles because he felt he was not given the respect he ‘thought’ he deserved.
ReplyDeleteHowever I believe that Archilles is the weakest character. He was willing and to an extent eager to see innocent Achaeans suffer in order to satisfy and heighten his own ego; a disheartening quality of a soldier such as himself. Throughout the book he slandered Agamemnon for his superciliousness, failing to realize that he was in no way different. Archilles therefore displays the characteristics of weakness, arrogance and the inability to reflect and criticize one’s self.
In my opinion, Nestor was the strongest individual as he courageously pacified the fiery conflict between Archilles and Agamemnon and brought them both to the realization that there was something much greater at stake than their power struggle. This brings an interesting twist to the concept of strength; the fact that it can be seen in more than just physical prowess but the courage to state an opinion in daunting circumstances.
Strength can be interpreted in several methods. Sometimes, being strong means being complacent and watching from the sidelines. Being strong also means having the strength and courage to withhold oneself. In this case, I believe that Achilles was the strongest individual. He fought throughout the Trojan War, but in Book 1, Achilles held his composure to not kill Agamemnon. Athena was sent to stop him, but he had the choice of either obeying her wish or not. In this case, Achilles could have easily ignored Athena's request and attempt to kill Agamemnon, but instead, Achilles displayed the strength to keep his composure and not kill Agamemnon. Later on, he goes back to his mother to ask for her help. In terms of today's standards, many people may find something like this to be difficult, especially with the growing prides of humans. Achilles then displays the strength of withdrawal. He practically was a war machine, and he resisted this temptation of fighting. He showed wisdom by seeing the greater good for his armies instead of realizing his own personal gain to an extent.
ReplyDeleteWeakness can be defined as being at the mercy of another being. For example, Zeus could be considered weak because he owed Thetis a debt. Therefore, the virtue of pride comes into play. Because Zeus is prideful, he does not want to stay indebted to another person, especially a woman (men were considered the dominant gender during this time). Pride can also be considered an element of weakness. As Athena spoke to Achilles, she insinuated that the pride of Agamemnon would cause his own downfall.
To conclude, courage can be seen in both the strongest and weakest character. Achilles showed the courage to stand down and suck up his pride for a greater good, while Zeus showed the courage to repay such a large debt to Thetis.
Achilles may be a very strong candidate for the most courageous/powerful character in the book by virtue of him being one of the main characters of The Iliad. He does indeed show courage in that he openly opposes his superior (King Agamemnon) in front of his own troops. However, I do believe that no character showed as much power and virtue as Achilles' mother, Thetis. If "power" were to be a measure of expressed virtues, specifically the four "good" virtues, then Thetis shows the most. She shows wisdom, bringing advice to her son, Achilles. She shows bravery by confronting Zeus (even touching him, her being a mortal, and him an immortal) to take Achilles' side in the war. This could be tied into an expression of piety, having faith in Zeus to have the power to bring her son salvation. Prudence is shown simply by expressing concern for her own son and making the right decisions to better his future (as in asking Zeus for help). In my opinion, all four virtues were shown in this character, and also in my opinion, that constitutes the most "power," since "power" seems to be rather loosely defined for this topic. The "weakest," therefore, would be the one character to have shown the least virtue, or be the least virtuous. I chose Agamemnon to be the weakest character, since he is not shown to express any virtue except perhaps bravery, but even that is questionable. For example, though he may show bravery/courage in leading an army against the Trojans, he is unable to confront Achilles himself when he decides to take Breseis away from Achilles. Instead he orders two of his men to do his dirty work. He shows no prudence, wisdom, or piety in one moment: the moment he dupes the oracle of Apollo. By simply doing that, he shows no faith in the god and his powers, risking endangering his own troops with the wrath of Apollo. On that point, he fails to show prudence as well, not able to do what is right for his cause and his troops, which would have been to take the ransom provided by the oracle in exchange for his (the oracle's) daughter. In conclusion, "power," in my opinion is the expression of good virtues. The less a character is able to express these virtues, the weaker he or she appears to me. Thus, Thetis, who expresses the most virtue, is the most powerful, whereas Agamemnon is the weakest, failing to express any good virtue at all in this book.
ReplyDeleteFirst, I have to make the distinction between "strength" and "power." I see power as something outside the self, a value that is determined by other people and the influence one has over them. Meanwhile, I see strength as something that exists apart from others and only within the self. Strength is the ability to hold on to one's ideal of truth in a situation, even in the face of physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual adversity. Strength stems from courage, a more absolute measure of that ability.
ReplyDeleteThe figure with the most power is easily Zeus. While most of the dialogue in the book happens between Achilles and Agamemnon, we are reminded of Zeus's power when Thetis begs for his help and again when he reminds Hera of his position of power. Though the war between the mortals is largely god-initiated, his position as king of the gods leaves him in the ultimate position of power (though, for the most part, the other gods get to deal with their own disputes). Though Hera is Zeus's wife, she is certainly not his equal, and we see this in her fear after Zeus threatens her.
The individuals with the least power in the book are Chryseis and Briseis. As they are women and are won in battle, they have little to no authority over their fellow captors.
Strength is a harder quality to find in the book because it exists within the self. By definition, it is hard to gauge from the outside in. However, as one never completely knows one's self, it is also difficult for the individual to determine. I feel strength, therefore, is only situational.
Nestor is my pick for the individual with the most strength. He jumps into a heated argument between Achilles and Agamemnon and takes the focus off Achilles and Agamemnon, the individuals, and places focus onto the larger picture--a battle, a problem bigger than Achilles and Agamemnon's personal dispute. While Nestor is not the subject of a personal verbal attack, strength is not necessarily determined by who experiences the MOST adversity but rather who holds on to his own idea of truth. While Achilles and Agamemnon both show strength in this book, Agamemnon accuses Achilles of arrogance, which he himself portrays, and vice versa.
As far as who portrays the most weakness...my answer is either Agamemnon or Zeus. The men have something in common: they're both watching out for number one. Agamemnon's fight with Achilles bases on the fact that Achilles has something that Agamemnon wants and intends to have (all the insulting stuff...that was just supporting his argument). Zeus, in his discourses with Thetis and Hera, respectively, show his weighing of his options between his decisions and how they'd affect himself as opposed to the other gods/mortals. While Zeus's decision may come out politically correct (somewhat) in the long run, his actions make him seem weak. Both Agamemnon and Zeus are in positions of power, and there is a greater expectation here, for them to be able to put aside their personal problems for the good of the those they rule. Their respective failures to do so add to their weakness in this situation.
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ReplyDeleteI believe that every person has a different idea of what strength and weakness are. In my opinion, strength has both a physical, mental, and moral aspect to it, because if someone does not have a brain, there is no way he will be able to use his power effectively. I also think that a person with physical strength and wisdom must be able to stay true to his beliefs until a person prove those beliefs wrong. In regards to the reading, the person uses strength the best would have to be Nestor. It takes an extreme amount of courage to speak against two people who have more power than he does in the society. Nestor alludes to his wisdom by talking about how even stronger men had considered his opinion in their decisions and by being so close to these powerful men and with his own words, it is quite apparent that Nestor had great physical strength at one point. Weakness, on the other hand, is the overextension of strength. When a person uses their strength without thinking about the consequences his actions will have on others, they are showing weakness because he fails to realize that many people are affected by every decision that he makes. I believe that the weakest person in Book 1 in The Iliad is Apollo. The plot would have stagnated in the first few pages if the Achaeans were not being killed by Apollo’s actions. While I do not condone Agamemnon actions, I believe that Apollo should have dealt with Agamemnon personally instead of killing many innocent people and animals. Being a god, it is clear that Apollo has physical strength, but Apollo is not effective in getting what he desires since it takes so many deaths to reunite the Chryse with Chryseis. Apollo does not much courage by killing people who are inferior to him especially since none of those people had one done anything to deserve it.
ReplyDeleteIt's interesting to me that the question lumps strength and power together, because I define them similarly to Kylee. Power refers to one's influence and effect on the world and beings around them- it can be attained with or without true virtue, and is more of an external attribute like clothing than a character trait. Strength, however, refers to a powerful internal quality. People with strength are able to persevere throuh difficult things and hold their ground against all odds. This reults in them being powerful, while having power does not neceissarily result in strength.
ReplyDeleteTherefore, I would say Agamemnon is the most powerful, because as king he has command of the most men, and his actions have had the most influence, in my opinion (he wins because he caused the plague).
The strongest, however, is the seer Calchas, because he had Agamemnon's anger to fear, but spoke up "for the armies' good" (85). This took strength because he had to press on telling the truth even after Agamemnon grew angry. This certainly goes hand in hand with courage, but stands out to me as strength because it combines bravery with perseverance.
Forgetting power, because it's not very indicative of character, I will define weakness as the opposite of strength. The weak are cowardly, which almost always goes hand in hand with selfishness (by definition, if you ask me), and because of this they fold easily under pressure, eager to take the easy way out.
This makes Achilles the weakest character. Although Achilles is a powerful and important leader, Agamemnon is king and supervisor. When they have a conflict (although it is true that Agamemnon's own brand of weakness began the conflict unfairly), Achilles responds with wounded pride, threats, and pleas to the immortals. He lacks the strength to do what is best for all by working to keep the two armies together. His primary response is selfish lust over Briseus, for which he is willing to tear apart all the men, knowing that his warriors are key to the army's survival.
A quick note to those who talked about the gods- I don't know if they exactly count because to me they exemplify the difference between strength and power. Being on an entirely different plane from mortals, they have automatic power, and this position has prevented them from developing character traits like strength and weakness anywhere near as developed as those of mortals (meaning the Ancient mythological storytellers were more concerned with giving them superpowers than humanity).
I suppose it would be best to start with my own definitions of power, strength, and weakness. To me, power is equated with control. The most powerful would be the person with the most influence over others. This would mean that Chryses has the most power. He was the only one who was really able to influence events enough to get what he wanted by the end of book one. He got his daughter back as he wished, bending gods, kings, and warriors to his will in order to achieve this end. He made others sacrifice, yet lost nothing himself in the process. This shows a vast amount of power to me. Strength, on the other hand, I don’t heave a ready definition for. I guess I could define it as the potency of some thing or maybe even as the ability to accomplish something difficult. In my mind, Achilles fits this definition. He not only has physical strength but emotional strength. His emotions seem to be quite fiery and strong. Yet what shows the greatest strength is his ability to rein those emotions in (even if he needs the gods to remind him to do so). When one is consumed by passion, such as Achilles was when Agamemnon insulted him, it is very difficult to return to reason. However, Achilles succeeds in doing this and by that shows great strength. Finally, I see weakness as the inability or lack of desire to exert one’s influence or even to act on one’s own behalf or beliefs. From this point of view, I see the two mortal women, Chryseis and Briseis, as the weakest. They do absolutely nothing. There is not one mention of them attempting to stop themselves from being passed around by the men like pieces of meat. Maybe it is just my inner feminist, but I find it extremely weak that they do not try to stop the men from treating them like possessions or that they don’t even speak up to say what they want. I suppose this is ancient Greece, but even then, the female gods have just as much power as the males. But cultural gender roles aside, I still find these women's lack of action weak.
ReplyDeleteI believe that strength and power are completely different. Strength is usually associated with physical ability or being able to resist a force. One can also have mental strength meaning they have the ability to perform under pressure and keep their morals when influenced by others to change. Power, however, is more often associated with having control over a situation. Weakness is feebleness or being inadequate.
ReplyDeleteIt was very difficult to find a hero in Book 1 of the Iliad. No one character exactly jumps off the page and screams hero! However, I did find Nestor to be the one of the stronger characters in the reading. He stands up to Achilles, but mostly Agamemnon. This takes a lot of strength because both characters are much more powerful then him and could easily destroy him. Nestor also had Achilles and Agamemnon realize that their own individual power and struggle was far less important then they had originally thought. The weakest character by far was Achilles. Achilles was a pathetic hypocrite who argued with Agamemnon about his prize when he had a prize for himself as well! It came down to the point of who was the lesser evil, and Achilles’ put on a false appearance of virtue making him inadequate and therefore weak.
Generally it is understood that Zeus is the most powerful of all the Gods. I, however, was quite dissapointed with Zeus' display of violence and lack of understanding. I would describe Zeus as a weak character in book one. He seems to be more a figurehead than someone who actually benefits those below him. I was expecting much more from such a famous name. He is irrational and angry. A good leader should be level-headed, down to earth, and open-minded. Zeus' fury is not a sign of power, but rather the mark of a man who is not brave enough to not constantly act enraged. While Zeus is able to strike fear into the hearts of many, he does not deserve respect and therefore is a weak leader.
ReplyDeletePower and strength are often connected with physical ability, but in my opinion true strength is found elswehere. It takes strength to stand up for what you believe in, or to give up your safety or well-being for others. The strongest people in life are usually intelligent and passionate. Power, on the other hand, can come to many who don't deserve it. Adolph Hitler, for example, had vast amounts of power becuase it was given to him by the millions of conformists who were unable or unwilling to think for themselves. Power is something given to a person, while strength comes from within. One is only powerful when others think him so. Nestor was the strongest character in book one. As the only rational character, he talked down two enraged, powerful figures who could have caused much strife. Nestor put his well-being on the line for the sake of others.
As many have said, strength and power are two different concepts, which are related but not mutually inclusive. Strength implies a personal capability: Achilles is physically strong, while Nestor holds his strength in his oratory capabilities. Power, on the other hand, implies influence. Similar to strength, one could have the physical power to coerce or the mental power of control and resiliency; but there are other variables which must be incorporated into one's schema of power. Agamemnon lacks the physical strength of Achilles, the persuasive capabilities of Nestor, and the insight of Calchas, yet he gains an innate power from being King, and leader of the Achaean army. With the definition of power and strength expounded upon, I would argue that Nestor, is the most powerful. His reputation and persuasiveness allows him more power than his station would normally. As a strong influence over the multitude of kings, he holds the ability, more-so than any other, to convince other kings to agree with him. This affords him the capability to overrule even Agamemnon's verdicts.
ReplyDeleteThe candidates for the least powerful character are numerous. Valid arguments for Agamemnon, Achilles, Hera and even Zeus, amongst others, have been proposed. However, Calchus appears to be the weakest character in the first chapter. He possesses the potential to be the most influential; he can talk to Gods, which is no trivial feat. Yet, his cowardice prevents him from revealing the truth about the cause of the plague. Not until he is forced to expound upon the issue, and given protection by Achilles, does he reveal the cause of the blight. Out of all of the characters, Chalcas was the not only the most spineless, but also the most selfish, since his hesitance caused the death of many soldiers.
In this reading, I perceived Achilles to be the strongest character. Even though it could be said that he's mostly motivated by his proud and unwillingness to lose, he still was a strong character because he refused to just give up. Achilles had conviction in the strength of himself, and that in itself makes him a powerful person. Being a good or a bad person doesn't have much to do with strength, so even though Achilles may or may not be flawed, he still showed strength throughout this chapter, and it must mean something that Achilles argued against Agamemnon, who happens to be a king.
ReplyDeleteI found a lot of people in this reading to be weak, but who I'm going to pick as the weakest is Calchas, the seer. I thought it was just completely cowardly to need protection in order to speak the truth. He lacked conviction. He knew it was the truth, yet could not speak it, and I believe that makes him the weakest person in this chapter.
In my opinion strength, when in terms of character, must be evaluated based on motive. Is a character driven by the desire to be great, or the fear of failure? Does this character act for the sake of achievement or for the sake of others seeing him achieve? Based on this standard, most characters in book 1 are very weak. Achilles fears being forgotten. Agamemnon fears his authority and power being undermined. Calchas fears the wrath of the king, which impedes his honesty. Even the Gods are motivated by human-like fears and caprices. Zeus is motivated by the fact that he owes Thetis a favor. It is for this reason that I choose Nestor as the strongest character, for lack of a better choice.
ReplyDeleteCalchas, I would evaluate, is the weakest character. That is because his fear causes him to betray reality, severing his integrity.
Dr. Layne, based on prior Greek mythology knowledge, I remembered that Zeus tended to hide things from his wife. I saw it again in this book as well when Thetis came to plead with him. Zeus was worried about Hera's reaction because she was always complaining that he took the side of the Trojans. I noticed that his decisions tended to be shaped by others. For example, his fear of his wife makes him hesitate to agree to Thetis's request but Thetis's continued pleas makes him agree to it. Also, when Hera "confronts" him about talking to Thetis, he throws, what I would call, a "hissy fit". Therefore, I just saw him as a weak person. If I rethink it, Hera may not necessarily be a strong individual. She certainly has a strong personality though. It takes a lot to inspire fear in someone who is "the father of men and gods" and even more to taunt him. So that's why I said at first that she was a strong individual. I'm still thinking about it though. Maybe it is because my definition of strength is not that concrete? I'm not really sure.
ReplyDeleteWhile reading this passage, I had a difficult time finding a character whom exhibited both strength and power. Both words have multiple definitions which span many different topics. In this case, I chose to see strength as something than can be measured in physical force throughout the body, and power as something deeper than that; something that comes from the mind and influences others one way or another. Since I see these two things as having different definitions, I chose two different characters.
ReplyDeleteI chose Achilles as the character whom I see as the strongest, merely because of his physical strength and ability to keep fighting.
Power was a bit more difficult, but I chose Nestor, as he was able to sway Achilles and Agamemnon, two very physically adept men, to quit fighting and see the bigger picture. While either Achilles or Agememnon could have easily hurt Nestor, he used his mental power and persuasion to calm the fight down, which in my opinion shows tremendous power.
Based on this question and for the sake of this being a philosophy class, I think that weakness here is less of a physical thing and more of a mental trait. So, I chose Agamemnon as the weakest character because he thinks of no one other than himself, and what he can do to improve upon his own life.
Before I read the question, I decided I would not read anyone else's response before writing my own. However, I could not resist reading a few and found myself seeing truth in all of their opinions-- making this very difficult to begin (hence this unnecessary introduction) and revealing a lack of faith in my own opinion.
ReplyDeleteStrength is a broad term that can refer to physical force, mental or moral power, and the amount of influence one has. Dictionary.com's many definitions of strength repeats the word power numerous times throughout, but in this particular case I find one of the weakest characters to have the most power at his beckoning, Agamemnon. While Briseis and Chryseis may be viewed as weak because they are merely thrown about and possessed by assorted males, Agememnon lacks strength of character, in my philanthropic opinion, because of the way he uses his power. He doesn't use it for the good of his country or to honor the gods, but for his own selfish happiness. When he finally gives up Chryseis, he demands to have Achilles' lady. Alright, so maybe misuse of power doesn't actually make him weak, just a bit cold-hearted. Objectively he isn't that weak at all. On the contrary, Briseis and Chryseis show a great deal of weakness, they don't really do much for themselves and let pops and Apollo do the plagueing. Honestly, I'm going back and forth through all of the characters in my thoughts, let's move on.
I see weakness as a lack of strength, not really an atribute on its own. It's a little more inactive. Achilles' and perhaps Nestor shined through as the strongest characters, because of their willingness to stand up for themselves. Although Achilles' relunctantly gives up Briseis, he does not jump at the first chance to use the brute strength he has been given. Asking Thetis to intercede for him was a smart move, ensuring that punishment will not directly trace back to him as would say... stabbing Agamemnon. Perhaps I am more willing to believe in Achilles' actions as strength because I'm made to like him more, I'm assuming Homer did this on purpose for whatever reason it serves the plot. Nestor is one of the strongest characters based on his actions compared to Briseis and Chryseis. He has respect but no real physical strength, yet he stands up for himself next to Agamemnon and Achilles ( I think someone else also said this).
In the end I find that most of the characters can be argued weakest or strongest, depending on how one perceives them.
Jordan, you encompassed by thoughts a bit more eloquently. haha good job.
ReplyDeleteIn my opinion, strength is more closely related to resolve or steadfastness, not dissimilar to your reference to Kierkegaard in "will[ing] one thing." Power, on the other hand, I think of as defined primarily by the control over others - their actions, their thoughts, their lives, etc.
ReplyDeleteIn this way it could certainly be said that Agamemnon takes the prize in both categories. After all, there is no doubt that he is steadfast - downright stubborn, even - in the receipt of his prize and restoration of his honor. But it is my belief that Nestor held more clout over the minds of men, and particularly with Achilles, who Agamemnon was unable to fully control and have obey every order. Hence, while Agamemnon is the strongest, Nestor is ultimately more powerful.
Through my own definition of strength - and weakness being the absence of such - there is no doubt in my mind that Zeus is the weakest character in Book I. If he isn't being steered by Hera's provocation, then he is submitting to the pleas of Thetis. It is only at the end that he even begins to show signs of strength, and by then it's only because he has committed himself to Thetis' request.
(I found it extremely hard trying to remember much of this information without making marks in the book, so if my memory on the plot line of the book is inaccurate, please excuse me.)
ReplyDeleteIt's funny, honestly. In the midst of discussing courage, the first word in in the Iliad is "rage" - a word not usually associated with courage, but with violence, without a doubt attributed to Achilles. Not to instantly dispose Achilles of the status of hero, but even still, he is not the one I would classify as the hero in this book. He and Agamemnon spend the majority of the first book fighting over who gets the woman, like children fighting over who gets to play with the newest and best Christmas toy. Concession to lust and overall lack of morals makes both of these men seem lacking in the virtues that would, in my opinion, make these men strong and powerful, reducing their mental capacity to that of a mere adolescent, thus deeming them as the weakest characters in the book in that aspect. After all, what is strength and power without the knowledge to know what to do with it?
I did make this assumption based solely on the lust that these men showed, which seems like a very shallow pool of information to draw a conclusion from. The sheer anger and rage shown by these men would almost cause reason for a double-take and make someone say that these men are, in fact, the most powerful in this book. This may very well be true, but power without restraint is nothing but recklessness, which would take away from the “strong” aspect addressed in this question. Strength, according to my definition, requires fortitude and the ability to restrain yourself when angered. The men in question didn't hold back from their quarrel until Nestor intervened.
Yes, Nestor took a leap of faith in (temporarily) breaking up the fight between Agamemnon and Achilles, but the classical virtues associated with strength would make Nestor's status as powerful questionable. Strength, in my opinion, needs to have a holistic component, not only involving brute force, but also a mental and emotional/spiritual aspect to it, making it hard to perceive who is the most genuinely strong. Chryses does seem to possess the latter two of these strengths, and finds someone to take up the physical part for him, Apollo, who obviously seemed to have killed the most people in this situation.
It might be stretching things a bit, but I honestly believe that Chryses was one of the strongest people in this book, not only for having the courage to approach Agamemnon and ask for his daughter back, despite Agamemnon's well known anger, but also having the knowledge to ask Apollo to fight for him, knowing that the he would be a much more formidable offense that he could be. Finding a powerful force to fight on your behalf might as well constitute being strong yourself.
I know that you said not to put fluff, but... I got caught up
correction in the first paragraph!!!!!!!!
ReplyDeletenot necessarily a typo, but confusion of ideas. The concession to lust does NOT make Agamemnon and Achilles powerful and strong, rather just simply stupid and immature. they are only strong from the physical perspective. Agamemnon and Achilles are, therefore the weakest, referring to the fact that stupid people aren't strong.
Oh, and Ricki admits that she misspelled attributes. Forgive her mental incompetence, as you should mine. :-)
Strength: the ability to assure the out come of a situation serves a specific purpose
ReplyDeletePersistence, autonomy, astuteness, and courage help to create Agamemnon, the book one character I found to be the strongest. Although I would consider him the story’s antagonist, he is able to commander almost every character. His decision to give up his “prize” determined the fate of armies; his influence among the gods saved him from Achilles unmatched abilities to battle, and his grandeur struck a death-determined fear into his empires most prominent seer. His ability to work traumatic situations into his favor and his ability to adapt to new accusations and complications allowed him to increase his influence in the out come of the situation. He also understood where his influence ceased to charm. He was able to acknowledge that Apollo was superior to him and that he had to appease him to stop the bloodshed of his people.
Weakness: being unable to use one’s strengths to alter the outcome of a situation
Achilles inability to make his strengths work for him and his willingness to let others influence alter his own decisions make him the weakest character. Achilles was a clever commander but when he had the opportunity to take matters into his own hands and kill Agamemnon, he allows Hera’s influence to alter a decision he’d already made. Once he subjected himself to the authority of Hera his speed and physical strength and battle grandeur became useless.
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ReplyDeleteAs many people have said above, there is no clear cut hero or exceptionally strong character present in Book I. Agamemnon is certainly the most powerful man in the excerpt. Nestor admits to Achilles that Agamemnon “has more power because he rules more men.” But possessing power is different than possessing strength. To me, power does not necessarily make a strong individual. As king, he wields considerable influence though this does not also mean good character. The same can be said for the immortal gods Zeus, Hera, and even Thetis. The gods, as well as Agamemnon, manipulate those around them for personal gain or pleasure. They are exerting their power but not demonstrating strength. Strength would be more evident in a person who succeeds through their own means of determination and good intentions. Though he is not an extremely strong individual, Nestor exhibits the most strength. He is honest throughout his conversations with the other characters though it made him fearful for his life. He even tells Agamemnon and Achilles that he has known much greater men than them, warning them to heed his advice. It took strength of mind and heart to tell more powerful men this. In contrast, Achilles is the weakest individual. He surrendered his cause merely because of an on-going feud with Agamemnon. His spite and jealously caused him to abandon the war that he had spent years fighting, putting the lives of his men at risk. To give up without resolve would make the lives previously lost seem given in vain. His selfishness continues when he prays for the death of the people he once called allies. The way that he allows hatred and greed creep into heart and character definitely indicates great weakness.
ReplyDeleteI’m going to go ahead and make the assertion that Courage requires Strength and is a demonstration of any one or more of the strengths: mental, spiritual, emotional, and physical. Therefore, I acknowledge the strongest character to be the most courageous character.
ReplyDeleteI see that a lot of bloggers here have shot down Achilles as the strongest character, and I agree. How can people call Achilles a courageous hero? Sure, he's for the greater good, and listens to the gods and has the most strength et cetera. But the courageous use their own resources to reach their goals, they defend their values and, most importantly, LEAD OTHERS TO COURAGE. Most of the time the words "courage" or "brave" occur when Achilles himself uses them. For example, when he address Calchas, he tells him to take "Courage! Out with it, now Calchas, " and immediately Calchas "took heart...and spoke out bravely."(lines 99-100, 109, 110) That is not bravery! Bravery is facing certain risk to obtain a greater good, not taking solace in protection from that risk! What Achilles is spreading is not Courage, it is persuasive security. As if this fact were not enough to wrench the title-strip of "courageous" from Achilles' sleeve, he performs an even more cowardly action by seeking revenge via his mother! This is the same reaction as most of the major leaders in the story so far! Achilles is no more brave than the priest Chryses! In fact, Chryses, is MORE courageous, because he faced the entire Achaen army. But enough about that, he still went and whined to Apollo and essentially exacted revenge, no matter how much Agamemnon deserved it.
The TWO most courageous characters are Nestor and Hephaestus. The reasons are simple: they don't brown nose to specific gods in order to maintain security; contrarily they confront different, angered, bickering authorities (Agamemnon and Achilles, Zeus and Hera, respectively) and create peace at the risk of their own peril (whether by being slain by sword or lightening bolt, also respectively).
Exempting the immortal characters from the discussion, the most powerful character we see in the first chapter of the Iliad is Agamemnon and the least powerful characters (albeit minor characters) are Talthybius and Eurybates. Agamemnon, stubborn, often naive, and greedy, is extremely powerful because, as is noted in the chapter, he has a army behind him. No matter an individual's strength (physical, mental, or otherwise), the power of said individual is determined by their ability to enact change. And, very simply put, one man is far less able to enact change on his own, then one man who is directing, many others. Again, this is why Talthybius and Eurybates are the least powerful characters: they have the least ability to manifest change. Nothing they do, without the backing of the king (and in some cases even with the backing of the king) will create change. As such, they are not powerful.
ReplyDeleteThe most powerful character in Book One? Zeus, king of the gods, of course, would be the most literally powerful. He holds power over lightning and reigns above all of Olympus. But one could go so far as to say he is quite possibly the weakest character in Book One when it comes to "the good life."
ReplyDeleteWeakness:
My own words: a lack of a skill or ability.
Dictionary Widget: a quality or feature regarded as a fault.
Zeus lets his power take control of him; he threatens to throttle his own wife as she accuses him of scheming without her knowledge while lying to her about his actions. He is obviously honored and revered by the Greeks but seems to recklessly abuse his power over the gods. He seems unable to relate honestly to his wife (and queen of the gods) Hera. As we mentioned in class yesterday (and on our first blog post), honesty takes courage.
Strength:
My own words: an ability to control situations and one's self.
Dictionary Widget: the emotional or mental qualities necessary in dealing with situations or events that are distressing or difficult
I believe the strongest character (in regard to "the good life") in Book One to be Agamemnon. He is a leader, a ruler who generally cares about his subjects: he would rather give back Chryseis (even though he prefers her to his own wife, Clytemnestra) than put his own people in danger. Zeus, on the other hand, seems quite willing to see a war break out.
It is my opinion and many others' that the weakest character in this book is very obvious; Agamemnon. There are various ways to be weak; by lacking courage, being doubly ignorant, physically without strength, and mentally. Agamemnon seems to embody these traits easily. A big giveaway of his psychological weakness is his almost child-like mentality of selfishness. He feels like he deserves what he does not, and without regard to fairness or common sense, his narrow mind provoked him into making a mistake that cost many lives.
ReplyDeleteWhen i think of strength, i think of physical and mental endurance and one character that i feel truly shows this trait is Zeus. Of course the physical strength is a given but when i analyze his words and the way they are spoken, i find that he has a lot of mental strength as well. At the risk of sounding sexist, i think that Hera, like most women, is very suspicious of her man and that unconsciously tend to lead to nagging. Most men succumb to this, as they do not have the mental ability to fight back or stop it, but i admire Zeus, if not for his strength, but for his courage and self-confidence. He knew his place in their home, and acted accordingly.
Achilles is the obvious answer for the strongest in the sole fact that he has restraint. By controlling his emotions, even if it took a little bit of divine intervention, and not killing Agamemnon, an act which his physical strength would have been the easier choice, proves that not only does he have the strength to act, but also the strength to deny himself of his inner desires, which is much harder. His strength is also reflected in his persistence on conviction.
ReplyDeleteThe weakest character, in my opinion, is surprisingly Zeus. He is easily persuaded and he acts based on impulse without thinking about the consequences of his actions. With all the physical power he possesses, his lack of personal judgment spawns from an inherently weaker mind. And his conversation with Thetis and his misplaced anger with Hera makes it seem as if he makes decisions along the same lines.
Power can be very multifaceted, but in the context of the political climate durring the Iliad, I would define power as freedom from and of influence. The characters who are the most powerful have the greatest ability to bend others to their will, and the greatest freedom to follow their own wills, regardless of other's desires. Strength denotes a power and toughness but is more intra-personal and less interpersonal than power. It can imply force of will, and power to act as an individual as well as the characteristics it shares with power. It could be argued that Zeus is the most powerful character, because he is at the top of the hierarchy of Gods, but, I would chose Thetis as the most powerful character, because she successfully convinces Zeus to do her bidding and help her son.
ReplyDeleteThetis possesses both conventional strength (which she demonstrated earlier in the book by rescuing Zeus) and a more subtle power of influence which stems from her femininity and connections to the other Gods.
Thetis offers a sharp contrast to Brisies, who's femininity makes her highly desired but powerless and who appears to be lacking significant social connections and the power that might accompany them. The Google online dictionary defines weak as:
1) Lacking the power to perform physically demanding tasks; lacking physical strength and energy
2) Lacking political or social power or influence
This definition fits Brisies well because she has the desire to change her position, but cannot do so of her own volition or influence. Unlike Thetis, Brisies is objectified for her feminitiy and cannot draw strength from it. She is repeatedly refereed to as a prize, Thetis. Achilles and Agamemnon. She is not considered or treated as a human being, but as a bauble. Achilles weeps when she is taken, not for the loss of and trauma to a friend or lover, but instead for the blow to his own pride and the loss of a posession. He works to regain her, but the Iliad makes no mention that she influenced his actions. It says only that she trailed behind, reluctant every step" (89).
Apollo is the strongest individual in Book I since he is the one who caused the plague which kicked off the whole Briseis affair. A powerful or strong person in the Iliad is anyone whose actions are effective and who can beat out anyone else, be victorious. The definition of strong/powerful will change with circumstances and perspective but Homer suggests in the Iliad that a strong person is someone hard, someone who is immune to outside pressures and can take control of his own life. Achiles is another strong individual, though only a half-god he obviously can’t be as powerful as any of the laughing company, but Achilles does have the ability to sneer at the supposed high king of the troops; he does give Agammemnon the girl Briseis but that’s more just a pouting way to show his own strength since he then in his rage can show everyone exactly how powerful he is, that the Achaian army will soon be nearly annihilated because he’s not fighting. Homer also suggests that the strong/powerful are those who have the gods on their sides, which means anyone to whom fate and life is kind; Achilles may not really cause his army to be destroyed, it’s just Thetis’ influence with Zeus. You could say Briseis is the weakest, but Homer calls her beautiful and a worthy prize—and she is the one two great men are arguing over, so you could also say in terms of a woman’s power/strength, Briseis is a very powerful/strong woman much like Helen. Everyone has their own strengths and victories, and Homer doesn't see any one as the strongest or most powerful; even the gods can be persuaded.
ReplyDeleteDaniel Hoppes