Okay so today we got a glimpse into the Christian transformation of the hero into the saint via discussing the life of Ignatius of Loyola. Over the next couple of days I want you to tell me what sainthood is. Feel free to think outside the Catholic box by applying it to the everyday conception of the saint e.g. "my mama is a saint." In this tell me why the saint may differ from the hero or how risk/courage may or may not be involved in this conception.
Cheers,
Dr. Layne
Until further notice, let's agree to watch Jesus Christ Super Star at 8:30 tomorrow....also has anyone found a copy or should I run to best buy? If no one finds it by noon tomorrow, I will run that errand ASAP (Simon loves the film so its no beef off my dinner plate).
Also there is a philosophy lecture tomorrow night, so please feel free to attend that as well.
A saint is a person who consistently puts the good above his or her own other interests. They live a life completely dedicated to the good and the pursuit of the good. Although by definition they will fail, they never stop trying, in way big, or, more often, small. A hero does that which we cannot to, they do great actions. A saint simply always does the good, as see through little actions. So rick and courage are not needed, for giving someone else the last cookie requires neither, just a good heart.
ReplyDeleteI apologize, but I will be unable to attend the Superstar of Jesus because I am required to go see the play Almost, Maine (for a second time) that night by another professor. Enjoy it without me.
Saints are the individuals who bring Heaven to Earth. They are a vessel and a glimpse of God's love that is both tangible and comprehensible. Their lives are pointed directly towards serving others. Saints are servants. They are servants of God who through Him serve others. Every individual who serves does so through God, for only from Him do we have anything to give. He is the source of all giving, so all giving is through Him. Therefore saints of all kinds are the individuals who are in touch with God's love and gifts, and share it with each life they encounter. In this, they bring Heaven to Earth.
ReplyDeleteIn comparison, a hero often acts based on their own strengths, own courage, have calculated their own risks, and fight their own battles. In short, what makes them stand out comes from themselves. However, a saint is someone who has humbled himself to be a conduit for the overflow of God's love. Beyond the courage it takes to make such a choice, what makes the saints stand out is that their lives are lived in time with the rhythm of God's grace, and give of themselves through Him consistently.
Saints are people who live a simple and reserved life, sacrificing their own wants and desires to put others first at all times. Their works are reflections of God's ideals and they seek to share this with every life they encounter not only through their words but also in acting as an example to others. Saints are those strong indivduals that endure for the greater common good, they are faithful and allow God's will to act through them.
ReplyDeleteThe idea of a saint on the other hand seems to be more subtle than that of the hero. While I believe they both fight for the common good a heroe's actions while it may be courgeous is not necessarily connected with being faithful.
A saint is someone whose strongest desire is to be good and spread this good. Because of their altruism, saints live a humble life. Sainthood does not necessitate courage. Just like any other person, a saint is courageous when there is an obstacle or fear to conquer. If denying evil and opening up to good is an obstacle for a saint, if the saint must overcome evil, then there is courage involved. This is completely separate from the hero. While a saint is good, courage defines a hero, for society names a hero for a courageous deed he performs. These two may overlap; a saint can be a hero, and a hero can be a saint. However, one does not require the other.
ReplyDeleteSaints are people who have developed their virtues to the point that their entire life revolves around them, usually to the point that the good is recognizable (although, this is not necessarily the case). I believe that it requires the utmost courage to be a saint, simply because virtue requires constant opposition to the forces of evil and evil tendency, human entropy, if you will.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the wonderful world of Wikipedia, as saint is an individual "of exceptional holiness." I see saints as people who live their life in a way that exemplifies sacrificial love and faith above all else, because all actions will reflect sainthood if accompanied by these virtues. Ignatius wanted to be a saint, and this is a very admirable goal in life, even though seemingly arrogant to want to be considered a saint.
ReplyDeleteThe Roman Catholic view of a saint is someone who lives a life of extraordinary, or heroic, virtue. They are people who are examples of the moral virtues and who easily live out the virtues of charity, faith, and hope. However, I believe a saint is simply someone who goes out of their way to do good deeds no matter what, even if it means risking their own life. To live the life of a saint sometimes means you have to suffer or fail. A saint does not fear death because they see death as a means of being closer to God in Heaven. Saints are courageous in the fact that they will put everyone else above themselves. They live their life not for themselves, but for the greater good of God’s people.
ReplyDeleteA saint is one who, through notable good deeds, furthers people's faith and awareness of god. That does not necessarily mean proselytizing, simply that the saint must have a religious or spiritual reasoning behind their actions. There virtues are displayed in the face of great adversity because they draw these virtues from a belief in a higher power.
ReplyDeleteThis is different from the hero in that, we never really know what the hero's motivations are. A hero can be motivated by greed, lust, vanity, just about anything. As long as they are committing "good" deeds, they're a hero. Hence the anti-hero.
Although the difference in the two is small, it is definitely noteworthy because while the hero is doing good deeds at the time, they distinguish between right and wrong in a much different way than the saint does. And as a result of the faith based virtues, the saint is morally stronger and less corruptible than the traditional hero.
According to catholic pages.com, "In official Church procedures there are three steps to sainthood: one becomes Venerable, Blessed and then a Saint. Venerable is the title given to a deceased person recognized as having lived heroic virtues. To be recognized as a blessed, and therefore beatified, in addition to personal attributes of charity and heroic virtue, one miracle, acquired through the individual's intercession, is required. Canonization requires two, though a Pope may waive these requirements. Martyrdom does not usually require a miracle."
ReplyDeleteSo, the difference in my opinion is bureaucracy. Saints are just heroes that are religious, witness miracles, and have some pull with the Pope.
I think I'm gonna start in the box, then jump out of it.
ReplyDeleteFrom the catholic perspective, before one can be deemed a saint, their life must be evaluated by the bishop and see if it has been deemed "heroic," which is the exact topic that we have been discussing the entire class: heroism. This is then sent to the Vatican - and if the person's life is truly great and worthy, the candidate is then called "venerable." This is then where the split between Martyrs and Saints occurs. Both have the same starting process - but to be a saint, one has to have a few more qualifications. A martyr simply dies for a religious cause (for example suicide bombers for the cause of Jihad.) Though not always martyred, they can still be revered as one by their community (even though this is a Muslim/Islam belief, the same could still apply to Catholics if they died for a religious cause.) Saints, however, have to cause a posthumous miracle – such as having someone pray to said “saint” for healing after her daughter took seven times the lethal dose of Tylenol, and have the daughter come back to life (which has happened.) The so-called “saint” is now a SAINT!
As for the conventional sense of the term, whether you are faithful or not, performed miracles, anything religious related, if I can find and see God shining through someone, they might as well be a saint. Potential has just as much meaning as does actually being one. The difference between martyr and saint is just a matter of semantics for me. If someone lived for their faith, more specifically through exemplification rather than beating people with bibles, they might have well died for their faith as well.
A saint is simply an individual that the Christian church considers exceptionally good in nearly all aspects of life. This could range from faith in the religion to altruism towards all else. However I find this concept ridiculous because sainthood seemingly depends solely on the opinions of the church, based on what they consider to be benevolent and holy. What is holy and "good" to them may not be towards other religions and faiths. Being a saint does not necessarily make you objectively good in all aspects of life. It is merely what the church has claimed and told us/convinced us to be benevolent and holy. However, semantically speaking, a saint can plainly be an idea of being wholly benevolent. It can be a metaphorical term, of which is, to me, a more applicable form. (You can probably tell I'm totally atheist...)
ReplyDeleteI'm not a particularly religious person, so I'll do what Dr Layne said and talk about my mama.
ReplyDeleteShe's awesome, first of all. To me, she's demonstrated everything a saint should. In fact, she shows some similarities to St Ignatius in that she didn't reach "sainthood" until later in life. She was a lawyer for about 22 years, and then realized that she hated it and has since been teaching special education. Everyday she leaves the house at 630 to help these children, and then comes home and helps her own.
Obviously she isn't in talks to being named a saint at the Vatican, but to me she demonstrates everything a saint should; she's committed to what she loves, and she takes care of her family above everything else. More generally put, an everyday saint is someone who puts their heart into helping people and loving the ones around them.
Now, this is certainly, in my opinion, different than a hero. I don't think heroes need to do what they do because they do it, but rather because they know it's right.
In my opinion a saint as seen in terms of religion, is one who takes the true virtues of God and heaven and applies them to his or her everyday life. One who is able to portray the will of God and share his or her lifestyle as much as they can with others.
ReplyDeleteThe problem with Saints, is that they often get put on a pedestal whether they like or not. When placed above everyone else, they quite often lose their whole reason. They are then seen as "better" than everyone else and become vain. A perfect example is Jesus as he is portrayed in Jesus Christ Super Star. He is placed above everyone else and allows others to treat as though he is better than the rest, which defeats his purpose since only God himself should be placed above everyone when it comes to religion.
However, this is just my opinion, and since I know little about religion it might be far off. In my opinion a saint outside of the religious deffiniton is one who puts everyone else before themselves. They think never of themselves and are never vain.
Sainthood has to do with selflessness. I don’t know much about Catholic saints, but it seems as if they all gave their lives over to God-- to doing God’s work and being an extension of God on earth.
ReplyDeleteThe more casual, secular view of saints follows the same principle. It isn’t that these people lose their selfhood, it is that a part of that selfhood is dedicating their lives to others. When someone is referred to as a “saint” it is because they have done something good for someone else, they have touched someone else’s life by giving up a piece of their own.
A saint is not a hero because a hero is assumed to be courageous. A saint need not have courage. They must, however, be generous. The Saints (talking about the football team now..) are saints to this city because they worked and bettered themselves, even with their “Ain’ts” reputation, to bring this city some hope in the form of a Super Bowl win. They did it for the city because they are a piece of the city.
Ignatius, my aunt, and Drew Brees are all “saints” because of their common selfless dedication to something greater than themselves.
Thinking outside the Catholic box, a Saint is kind of like a role model for regular people. 'Saints' usually have a peaceful nature and display general kindness. They tend to have good moral values, and they never commit any kind of crime, in order to set a good example.
ReplyDeleteUpcoming children view their parents as saints. Physically, the parents are much bigger than the children, so they actually look up to them. Saints can be more than just parents; an important figure, perhaps an elected official, can also be a Saint. A Saint can be any person that you believe is working for the good of the world. Usually you don't think a Saint is someone like you, or similar to you. Your saint, whoever it may be, must be different because they are the image of what you would like to become, sort of like a far away goal that you would like to achieve someday.
A saint is someone who has a higher purpose of good that they identify with and define their life by. For some, this is God. For others, simply virtue, or the desire to help people.
ReplyDeleteA hero is simply someone who has done a favor, however large and selfless the favor. Someone could be a hero only once or only for one person. Their motivation could be anything, and does not have to last beyond one act. A saint, meanwhile, is defined by the mission to do good that powers their very being.
The aspect of risk is not necissarily involved in being a saint. The only thing that defines a saint is the symbiosis of their personal identity to the higher good they strive for. Most saints encounter as aspect of risk in working to fulfill the good they work for, and to encounter risk and back down would be failing to work toward it, and thus not being a saint. However, if one lives their whole life in service for the good, and never encounters risk, they are still a saint.
So I reasoned within the case of the everyday saint:
ReplyDeleteA saint is someone who is constantly putting others before themselves. They don't expect praise or a reward of their own but merely do it to help someone else succeed. They have the realization that the world is much bigger than themselves and strive to better this world be bettering the lives of others, one at a time.
A saint differs from a hero in that a hero can do a good deed but not continue to do such deeds. It may not take courage for a hero to do a one time thing but it takes a great deal of courage (strangely coupled with humility) to devote one's life to others, which is essentially sainthood.
I agree that it is rather narrow-minded to think of a saint exclusively in the Christian sense, but there is really very little difference between the saint and the "Saint." In fact, I might (maybe, just possibly) argue that the only difference is that a "Saint" has been officially recognized by the Church and given a title, as well as place in Its teachings. In the general sense, however, a saint is simply a paradigm of one who lives (or has lived, in the case of "Saints") a virtuous life. This may or may not include courage, as courage is a virtue, but obviously not the only one.
ReplyDeleteA hero, on the other hand, is one who has performed a virtuous act which has been recognized as significant. As Antonia so accurately pointed out, a hero need only commit a single virtuous act and/or for only one person to achieve his or her title. However - as has already been established - to earn the title of saint one must live the entirety of his or her life (or at least most of it) in a virtuous manner.
Since I'm not Catholic, I have to look to my main experience with saints... the Boondock Saints. Now, I know they aren't real people, but the movies have something great to say (albeit radically demonstrated) about how we should live our lives. You don't have to be a policeman to take a stand against injustice. Sometimes it's just a couple of ordinary guys placed in an extraordinary circumstance.
ReplyDeleteNow I'm not sure the difference between hero and saint, other than saint carries a much more religious context. I'd like to think that a saint does things for the good of the people, while a hero can do things just for glory and honor.
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ReplyDeletea saint is someone who is regarded as being good and virtuous, more so than the rest of society. They are revered for the unreasoned good works and the do where ever they go.
ReplyDeletethe saint maybe revered as good but is generally not a hero because there is no risk involved with being good in the eyes of society. Unlike one I would regard as courageous, a saint only has to be virtuous in the eyes of the people and a courageous hero won't be revered for their virtue alone.
To me sainthood is selfless devotion to serving others. This devotion is not fleeting, nor is it necessarily lifelong. However once it is discovered it is not abandoned. The type of service is not very limited but however it does work towards not just short term aid but long term progress to a person's development. One of my favorite quotes is from Saint Theresa. When a reporter said to her "I wouldn't do what you do for a million dollars." She said "I wouldn't either" in reply. Her work is the kind of thing I associate with someone "saintly", she was not helping for the short term satisfaction of making a person's day better, but rather serving with the hope that the person's life might be better.
ReplyDeleteWhether in or out of the Catholic box, a saint is someone's hero. The hero however, is not always a saint. The saint being someone who demonstrates a love for others and immense generosity. In the Catholic definition, also a dedication to the will of god and a few miracles under his or her belt. The hero can possess these qualities, but does not have to. This hero can be a selfish person, and by say, saving ten orphans from a burning building, becomes a heroin some sense.
ReplyDeleteI like to think a true hero and a secular or Catholic saint are one in the same, a long term commitment to doing good for the sake of doing good. After all, both can come in many forms. Not all saints are martyrs; my mah, by no means a valiant warrior, is a hero to me in many ways ( i mean... I'm thriving because of her, duh).
I was raised Catholic and do know quite a few saints from Sunday school, but when I was old enough to put things in perspective I began calling myself an Agnostic. But I can give you my views on the Catholic version of the work "saint" and the context it is used in today.
ReplyDeleteSaint Christopher, Saint Anthony; all are very prominent saints in the Catholic (and possibly others, like Methodist and such, I'm not sure) faith and usually, they represent a certain thing. For example, my mother told me to pray to Saint Anthony, "saint of miracles", when I lost my gameboy. His saintly power was supposed to help people find things. Interestingly enough, I did find my gameboy that was missing for almost a year. One thing I find amazing about this group of people is there resiliency. They lived thousands of years ago and still people pray to them for help now. Obviously, you don't get worldwide recognition and a fancy title from just sitting on your holy butt all day. These people made remarkable changes in their time by devoting their entire existence, every fiber of their being, so to speak, for something. Usually god. Okay well, with the Saints, always god. Sometimes football. (Get it?)
Now, people can say things such as "oh you are a saint!" when they are grateful for something. A bit watered down, especially since one Saint burned at the stake for her beliefs (Joan of Arc, btws).
As far as the "hero/saint" dilemma, others have said it before me and I agree. Lil Miss Theresa didn't just help one poor person put on shoes and then called it a day--she devoted her entire life to such acts, and greater. A hero is a tad different. Sure, their lives are usually devoted to something, but not always. And also, there are tragic heroes, which are certainly not saints. Saints and heroes are close in terminology, but shouldn't be used interchangeably.
Saints are virtuous people who often lay down their lives for what they believe in. Most Saints become driven by their ideals, and often these ideals overtake their minds. Their focus of life is often consumed, and they tend to blockade everything else from their minds. A saint cannot truly be recognized by a single definition. Technically, a saint is a person chosen by the pope in Christianity. Essentially, the decision is left up to one person or a group of people.
ReplyDeleteA hero wills his fame and glamor, while a saint often does not try to become famous. Instead, saints try to do what they think is ideal, and often, a crowd of people just follow them. Again, a single definition cannot describe a saint, but the definitions also vary depending on different perspectives (i.e. religion, peace, war, etc.).
Saints are, plain and simple, the epitome of earthly good. Devoting their selves selflessly to the betterment of mankind. Forget the Christian beliefs of the necessary miracles to be canonized, in our world, it is hard enough and praiseworthy enough, just to simply do good with no underlying goal in mind. To do good for the sake of doing good, and not even to allow the thought of good being done unto them pass through their mind, is virtuous enough to be considered sainthood and it should be the goal of our society.
ReplyDeleteOne doesn't have to be a saint to be a hero, but being a saint makes one a hero to mankind whether or not they make a profound impact or not. The minor effect they may have on the life of an individual may make all the difference in the world.
This question actually takes me back to my Catholic school days, when we'd have special lessons on All Saints' Day, when our teachers would tell us a little bit about some of the saints. They'd then explain to us that only some saints are recognized by the Church (through the methods described above by a lot of people...Alex is the one that comes to my mind at the moment, though), but we could all be saints if we followed God's law and led good lives.
ReplyDeleteA hero is someone who accomplishes something that someone else considers admirable. Most of the time, the "something admirable" denotes something the "someone else" considers courageous, a triumph in the face of adversity. However, a hero can be admired for other reasons, such as personality traits.
Coming back to my middle school story, a saint is a type of hero, and the thing that someone else considers admirable is long-term service to others--a devotion to good, if you will.
No matter how many religion classes I've been to I always image saints as in a lack; heroes go in excess and strength but saints always seem frail and weak, always an ascetic quality.
ReplyDeleteKafka has been called a saint or has some characteristics but he I feel fits neither term. His works are too beautiful. It's probably a prejudice on my part but a saint I feel has to have an idealistic/monotheistic quality which Kafka lacks, a solace in faith which even Kierkegaard does not--at least in his prime--really have.
Saints have displayed heroics and great courage in their own right like with the hundred martyrdoms especially in the church's early years, but I still don't like that syllable saint and wouldn't want to embody it whereas a hero like Heracles I can adore. I find almost cowardly their lack of egotism; there is a whole in which they can drown themselves and find it good to do so whereas a hero or a poet, while he may embody some ascetics or bravery or cowardice or whatever, are brave enough to remain themselves. I don't think of Jesus as saintlike much at all; Jesus makes himself seem very important: when he dies it is tragic but when a saint gets tied to a tree it's more like, poor sap, hope the ropes aren't too tight. Ignatius seemed kind of exciting as a youth and in his self-beatings and ministry but as far as he starts to become a saint rather than wanting to be one, he becomes less interesting.